Don't forget that Nick Gillard, the RL star wars swordsmaster who was Mark Hamil's stunt double of choice and choreographed the prequels, did design
different jedi styles of lightsaber combat to reflect background and personality. These same styles were later named forms and given more background, but that
doesn't change that fact that they existed in the movies. If you look you can see them, so lightsaber forms are actually in the films, not just EU.
Palpatine vs. Mace - Who would REALLY win?
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 Curt Falnath |
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Posts: 1113 (06/09/09 5:05) Pirate Prince
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Darth Immortus |
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Posts: 12996 (06/09/09 1:23) Sith Master |
In a similar position, Mace would probably have landed with his arms over the edge of the platform, and been able to use them to just pull himself up and ocntinue the fight where Yoda had to end it. Palpatine already had the high ground at that point, so I think if Mace were in Yoda's position he'd still be at such a disadvantage that he'd still lose. Also, concerning all this "Sword Form" crap. Yeah, the choreographers were thinking about each character's different methods of attacking based on their personality. But it's not like they were going, "Okay, we have to illustrate Mace's technique of Vaapad here" or "Obi-Wan is gonna use this Form III technique to fend off Anakin". These "Forms" are a bunch of bollocks when it comes to the movies. I think the bottom line is this: I simply am not satisfied in thinking that Palpatine was able to swiftly kill three Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds, as well as successfully fend off Yoda (who, if we go by EU, is on the same level as Mace and has outsparred him), only to coincidentally succumb to Mace just before Anakin shows up? Also, in the EU we know that Dooku was practically on the same level as Mace, and also outsparred him on at least one occasion. And theoretically, Palpatine should be better than Dooku since he's his Master, right? This is obvious, since Dooku wasn't good enough to beat Yoda, but Palpatine was. Therefore, I think it's way too coincidental and dissatisfying to say that Mace outright beat Palpatine. He certainly would have sensed Anakin approaching, and therefore I think the battle was thrown. Overalll, I'd say that Mace and Sidious are near equals when it comes to lightsaber combat, but I think Sidious' other arcane powers would give him the edge to prevail. Palpatine wins. |
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arumizy |
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Posts: 4638 (06/09/09 6:08) Adept Warrior
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^ Agreed.
But on the forms, the " Force Powers" of them weren't thought about or added until the EU books and such came about. It was just different swordsmen ship styles in the movies, nothing more then that when the movies came about. Some writter said well i think it would be cool if Mace flirted with the dark side and had this ubber sword style that every other practicioner succumbed to the dark side and he didnt. |
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Mak Manto |
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Posts: 30878 (06/09/09 9:33)
TJC Jedi Master
Shadow Investigator TGC's Official Liberal |
Not at all.
While Palpatine was battling Yoda in the Senate Chamber, he stated himself, "You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." He knew that he wouldn't be the strongest Force-user in the Galaxy. Mace clearly had Palpatine beat. Even if you don't consider the forms, or any of the EU, he had Palpy beat. I don't know why so many people think that he toned it down for Mace just to hope that Anakin would come to his rescue. |
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 Quel Jin Lorn |
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Posts: 24479 (06/10/09 12:49) Jedi Master
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How does Anakin's power have anything to do with Palpatine vs. Mace?
It's obvious that Anakin had the potential at least, to be the strongest Force-user in the galaxy. But I fail to see how that relates to this debate at all. We're not even talking about Anakin. I don't know why so many people think that he toned it down for Mace just to hope that Anakin would come to his rescue. That's not the hypothesis. He didn't tone it down to hope that Anakin would rescue him, that makes no sense. He toned it down because Anakin was coming. |
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Mak Manto |
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Posts: 30883 (06/10/09 12:57)
TJC Jedi Master
Shadow Investigator TGC's Official Liberal |
He didn't know that, which you think that Palpatine knew of this beforehand. He didn't.
Look at it this way, Quel. Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin show up, telling Palpatine he's going to be arrested. He told Anakin he was a Sith, so he deduces that Anakin told the Council that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. After killing off the three, he and Mace battle, and Mace gains the upper hand. It's then that Anakin came back. Palpatine did not know if Anakin would come or not. He used his abilities the best that he could, and in the end, it worked out for him, but I don't see that he saw it set in stone. |
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Quel Jin Lorn |
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Posts: 24481 (06/10/09 11:40) Jedi Master
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That hypothesis is only what we see on the surface. Again, what I said above. I just don't believe that Palpatine could easily dispose of three Jedi
Masters in seconds, only to magically lose to Mace just before Anakin arrives. During this time, Palpatine was still trying to convince Anakin that the Jedi
were evil, and he needed a way to show him their aggression. What better way than to intentionally succumb to Windu and make him look like the aggressor? I
believe that Palpatine was intending to win the battle, until he sensed Anakin's presence nearby.
Palpatine did not know if Anakin would come or not. He used his abilities the best that he could, and in the end, it worked out for him, but I don't see that he saw it set in stone. Why is it so hard to believe that Palpatine would be able to sense Anakin nearby? It happens all the time in Star Wars. Vader senses Obi-Wan's presence aboard the first Death Star. Luke senses Vader's presence aboard the Executor when he's travelling to Endor, and likewise vice-versa. Why then is this scenario so hard to imagine? |
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Mak Manto |
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Posts: 30885 (06/10/09 4:31)
TJC Jedi Master
Shadow Investigator TGC's Official Liberal |
Why is it so hard to believe that Mace couldn't take on Palpatine and take him down?
The scenario is hard to imagine, because you believe Palpatine knew what would happen. He didn't. He put all of his money on the right horse, and he won, but he still risked it. Which is why I believe Mace would've beat Palpatine if Anakin had not showed up. |
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Ayden Cater |
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Posts: 163 (06/10/09 7:23)
Rebel Adept
Part-time Smuggler Corellian Good Guy |
For the record, if you turn it up real loud and put on the captions [I think], then you can hear Palpatine's voice faintly in the flash sequence between
Anakin and Padme just before he takes off.
Coincidence? |
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Mak Manto |
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Posts: 30888 (06/10/09 9:25)
TJC Jedi Master
Shadow Investigator TGC's Official Liberal |
It's not faintly. It's loud enough.
But that's just Anakin remembering the conversation he had with Palpatine. It wasn't Palpatine using a power to influence him while Anakin was in the Jedi Temple. |
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Quel Jin Lorn |
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Posts: 24484 (06/10/09 10:56) Jedi Master
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Why is it so hard to believe that Mace couldn't take on Palpatine and take him down? -Mace and Yoda were on basically the same level, and Palpatine beat Yoda. -Dooku was also said to have sparred on equal ground with Mace, and Dooku < Yoda < Palpatine. Therefore Mace < Palpatine. -Anakin says in Episode II that Obi-Wan was "as powerful as Master Windu". Yoda tells Obi-Wan in Episode III that he is not strong enough to face Palpatine. If what Anakin says is true and Obi-Wan = Mace, and Palpatine > Obi-Wan, then Palpatine > Mace. These things combined with all my evidence above concerning his reasons for throwing the fight lead me to believe that Palpatine is better than Mace. Mace was indeed a superb fighter, and I imagine that he could possibly stand a chance against Palpatine and maybe beat him 30-40% of the time. But overall I think the evidence shows that Palpatine was, pound-for-pound, the superior fighter. |
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RC 9051 Nomad |
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Posts: 3886 (06/11/09 10:35) Elite
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No! Sure, they had different fighting styles, but sword forms don't exist in the movies. Remember, these movies are for general viewers that probably
won't notice the way they fight, other then Mace might have been a bit aggressive. You can't look at the movies from an EU Star Wars freak position.
You have to look at it as if you had only watched the Star Wars Movies. There are no specific Sword Forms, there is no Vapaad, there is Yoda, the man in
charge of the Jedi, who is more badass then Mace because Mace is under his command and looks up to him. Palpatine is this Sith Lord who not only runs the
Empire while plotting and planning Luke's turn to the Darkside, but through the prequels successfully manipulates an entire war, playing the leader on both
sides. This guy knew how to manipulate, knew how to predict things, and knew Anakin was coming, and therefore threw the fight to change Anakin to the
Darkside, and ultimatly creat Darth Vader. There is no swords form, no where in the movies does it state whether Mace was a better swordsmen then Yoda, hell,
we all saw Yoda fight and he kicked ass, and would have beat Dooku if he didn't play dirty. He ran with his tail between his legs.
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Ayden Cater |
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Posts: 164 (06/12/09 11:49)
Rebel Adept
Part-time Smuggler Corellian Good Guy |
But the forms still existed!
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Bane Nathos |
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Posts: 48631 (06/14/09 9:36) TGC STAFF |
George Lucas posted:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Ok, well this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cos' this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he's now that its very clear that he's, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers." |
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Tristan Nathos |
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Posts: 320 (06/14/09 4:46)
Sith Knight
Death's Scion Something of a Killer |
that last sentence makes no sense.
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vince kieff |
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Posts: 1257 (06/18/09 3:09) Jedi Master |
The point that makes this discussion difficult - how is is that the other 3 Jedi were so easily dispatched by Palpatine? The only reasonable conclusion is that
typical Jedi at that time were in fact not well trained in lightsaber combat vs. other lightsaber wielders, which makes sense given that the Sith had been
'extinct' for so long.
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Tristan Nathos |
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Posts: 511 (06/18/09 8:48)
Sith Knight
Death's Scion Something of a Killer |
I personally think Palps killing those three so quickly was just... plot, not anything of his own power.
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Ayden Cater |
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Posts: 184 (06/18/09 9:54)
Rebel Adept
Part-time Smuggler Corellian Good Guy |
Well, it's been said that they were hand picked by Mace because they were swordmasters. Kit Fisto we know for sure was no push over. I'm of the belief
that Palpatine did something like Master Speed, and only Kit and Mace could react fast enough to put up some defense.
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Mak Manto |
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Posts: 30936 (06/19/09 12:14)
TJC Jedi Master
Shadow Investigator TGC's Official Liberal |
Kit Fisto, Saesee Tin, and Agen Kolar were not some random Jedi that Mace chose because of their lightsaber prowess.
They were apart of the Jedi Council, and Mace most likely felt that he needed Jedi that were considered the wisest and strongest of the entire Order. But, yes, I agree with Ayden. It may have with better speed that he took down Agen and Saesee quickly, while Kit and Mace held theirselves for a tiny bit longer, until Kit fell. But Mace was the real deal, and I think he had the edge on Palpatine. |
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Halik Falkosi |
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Posts: 205 (06/19/09 5:35) RESTRICTED |
I don't like Mace Windu's nonsense lightsaber forms but I do accept it up to the point that he is supposed to be one of the best lightsaber duelists. I
think he totally had Palpatine.
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